schtroumph_c | Need the flist advice!

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I really want to answer but maybe it's better to ignore. I'm going to sleep on it first and ask you if I ignore or if I answer. Remember the Leap of Scene scene when McGee save Tony from going splat? Someone on the CBS forum thinks McGee waited until Gibbs' order before running to Tony, that he could see Tony falling and yet didn't react. Exact words: I'm less keen on that one because I thought McGee was a twatq for waiting until Gibbs ordered him to to go save Tony. Tony seemed grateful enough though so maybe I'm being too hard on McGee. I can't find a vid with the scene, but here's the description, just in case (I wrote it the last time we had the same talk):

Tony and McGee are at the level 9, Tony point McGee toward a way, that we know is up from the rest of the scene.

40:17 : Tony watch a car Gibbs and Ziva let go, putting them around 2 levels below him.

40:21: He jump over the edge to avoid the car's killer.

40:27 : Gibbs and Ziva spot him and run closer to the edge, he's actually 3 level above, right in front of them.

40: 30: Tony call Gibbs.

40: 33 : Gibbs sent Ziva to the fire alarm and tell McGee 'level 7'. That means Tony went down after the level 9, and McGee is two or more level over him.

40:36: McGee is running down a level, they're in circles, therefore putting him on the other side of whatever level he is at this point.

40: 37: McGee is still running, Ziva pull the alarm and lock the killer inside.

40:51: Tony calls McGee, who is still running and going to the edge to possibly evaluate the situation. Meaning he still doesn't know what's the problem is. By then, Tony is still one or two level below him. So back to 9, or 8.

41:02: Gibbs had the time to run back to a car, start it and drive back toward the killer to block her. McGee is still running.

41:25: The killer is stopped and McGee saves Tony.

The conversation start here. In page three, we have:

Her: As for McGee, he could see and hear exactly what hte others did and was the closest to make the save so I just don;t see why he didn't have had the wearwithall to do it without instruction.

Me: No, he wasn't. He was two or three levels over Tony, same distance as Ziva and Gibbs, and in the look-out for the car, so to see Tony, he had to watch down instead of doing his job. We don't see him between the time Tony sent him a level up (while Tony goes a level down) and him running down, we don't know what he did exactly after Tony screamed, but to know what happened, he had to get close to the border, taking him the three seconds between Tony calling for Gibbs and Gibbs signaling McGee where Tony was.

Her: its was open area and he could clearly see enough to know what he had to do from the very minimal instructions Gibbs gave him. I simply think that, in his placem neither Gibbs nor Tony would have require the instuction to know that they were the one in the best position to act.

Me: Gibbs said 'level 7'. Three seconds after Tony called Gibbs. You really think McGee had to have a visual to think, 'Tony called Gibbs, Gibbs said it has to do with level 7, something happened to Tony on level 7' ? We see him running down one level or two before being able to see Tony and find the details of the situation, he didn't know before if Tony fells, if more people attacked them, if a giant squid of space is invading...

You know, from your posts about some characters, I don't know if you simply have a low opinion of them or some very hight expectations they can never met.

(Based on her previous posts on many discussions about Ziva or McGee.)

Her: (quoting my last sentence) I merely think that McGee should have reacted to assess the situation and take action with the same speed that the others did and without requiring a specific instruction. You may disagree. That is your right. I'm not demanding you agree with me after all. Though you appear to be demanding that of me. For the record,though, comments like this are moving very close to the bash the poster if they don't agree with you style of posts and those I am getting really, really fed up of.

Ignore the weird spacing. The board suck, stick words together and putting a period between paragraph is one of the only way to keep them separated.

I hesitate between thinking "Whatever, keep believing that" and ignore her or answer with :

Insulting you would be bashing. Drawing conclusions about your feelings concerning the characters based on your interpretations of different scenes and your take about the characters in your posts is not. You're not exactly subtle about your opinion of Ziva and McGee. When you don't paint a negative image of them with occasional good points, you expect them to act with pure logic, a lack of feeling at a Vulcan level, ignore any data received from previous experience, or doing something beyond human capacity.

I'm not demanding you to agree with me, I'm baffled that you're taking as fact something you can only assume, a theory based on a negative opinion of McGee (can't do anything without direction) and strange expectation (can see beyond his field of vision and move at superhuman speed).

But I guess it'll count as 'bashing'. Or more seriously, going a step near fandom_wank. Still far from the level, but still.

I guess she's right, in a way, I'm demanding she notice the lack of McGee between Tony calling Gibbs and Gibbs calling McGee, making any conclusion about his reaction pure theory and acknowledge how impossible it is for McGee to see what's going downstair while doing his job. Hell, we just had the proof of this with Tony needing to go close to the edge and bending over to see Gibbs and Ziva.
And now I'm thinking about it, she's also giving a superpower to Gibbs, able to see through 5 levels of concrete to see McGee freezing in shock and indecision.

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I would jump in and join this and back you up, but that particular poster and I have gone back A LOT in the last week, and I'm willing to bet they would simply assume I'm jumping on the dogpile :) But you're right, they have particular opinions, and in this case, is completely wrong. McGee very clearly has to move to the edge and look down to see where Tony is hanging, seeing as how they were supposed to be looking at the cars and not down the middle. And McGee IMMEDIATELY jumped into action.

It's not bashing: it's pointing out their inconsistencies and calling them on seeing things wrong. that particular aspect of the scene isn't "left up to the viewers interpretation." McGee wasn't where he could see what was happening, but this particular poster won't/can't see it. I would think about whether or not you want the conversation to become about how you really want to change their opinion, with them not realizing they are acting the same way, intention or not.

I'm finding the CBS boards/forums really quite interesting, and incredibly too distracting for my own good :)

Bdbaba? With the negative opinion (Ziva can't control herself) and the unrealistic expectation (Ziva can guess and control and be responsible of the reaction of a whole room)? Talking to her is like talking to a wall who like having the last word.

Now I let some time pass, I'm less tempted to answer because it'll be a lost of time, but re-reading her answer, it's like McGee not reacting before Gibbs' order is a fact and we disagree about his reason of not reacting instead of me telling her the sky is blue.

Taking the affirmation of actual facts, there's no scene with McGee, it's physically impossible for him to see Tony unless he spent his time checking him out instead of doing his job (I mean, even slasher don't think McGee is unable to take his eyes off Tony once and a while), there was three seconds between a call and the other, as bashing is really fun when she kept accusing Agent to play the victim.

One second I want to give a diplomatic answer explaining my point of view and stop engaging her, the next second I just want to go, yes, you're right, I'm demanding something. And I have a sense of déjà vu right now. I'll try a mix of the two. Making McNozzo gifs is funnier and more worthy of my time that change a hater's point of view.

Yeah, BDBABA. And this particular poster has now followed me to another thread! I don't get her, I really don't. She's being so inconsistent it's hysterical! I am purposely engaging her and working her up. It's not right, but she's making it too easy. And her obtuseness is AMAZING.

She's a hater, apparently of both Ziva AND McGee, and apparently feels we all need to be, or that if she beats us down enough we will be. It comes down to your wanting to engage her. I'm enjoying myself while most wouldn't. I'm not taking it that seriously, where it seems she is.

And I agree, making McNozzo gifs is way better use of your time :) There aren't enough gifs of the boys in the world!!!

I like how she deliberately ignore intelligent arguments supporting a point of view contrary to her's. She's not going to admit she's wrong on some points not up for discussion. I'll add the facts scenes with the killer and Tony shows how difficult it is to see what's going downstairs when in the middle of the road. Maybe if the gospel of Tony is added...

She's a Tony fan, the extreme kind. He's perfect (He's only playing, it's how he is, well, Tony went to McGee in Probie so McGee should always bow down to him now!), and anyone not treating him as she would is bad. Example, Vance, who dared giving him a promotion, and judging him on what he see.

Wait, I remember one argument I liked from her and the other Ziva hater. Ziva manipulating Tony on telling the truth about the sperm bank is horrible and a total lack of respect! I mean, Tony would never, never do something like that. Certainly not to McGee. Nope, it's totally another trick he used to find the details about McGee and Abby's sex life. (McNozzo OT comment: Tony, your attempt to keep McGee away from Abby are showing.)

And that's when 'it's why less private and anyway, he was just teasing.' come out.

They kept saying Tony is not a Gary Stu in the Mary Sue discussion, but they completely fail to see they want him to be.

There aren't enough gifs of the boys in the world!!!

Here, after three months away, Tony realise McGee changed, including a tone of voice sending the message of "shut up and do what I say." Tony likes it.

(http://fr.tinypic.com?ref=25tb5mo)

NICE GIF. I hope you don't mind if I post your gifs to my tumblr. There's not nearly enough McNozzo goodiness over there :(

I can't decide if she's being purposely obtuse, or she really is THAT obtuse. One moment, she's talking about how it's the way she sees it, and the next she's calling me on seeing it the way I do. It's hysterical! I don't see why I bother; she's such an intense Ziva hater I honestly don't know why she continues to watch the show.

I love how Tony gets these fans; it's so obvious because they WANT him, not because they see him for the jackass he would be IN REAL LIFE. I love him, but if I knew him he'd get shoved into many a fountain for the way he is. I could totally be a friend of his, but I'd want to kill him for a lot of what he says. He's not PERFECT people, no one is, but stop acting like he's the poor put-upon and abused by Ziva person he is. COME ON!

I'm tempted to go through our past discussions and find past comments by her and copy/paste them to show her her own contradictions. Doubt it would actually do anything for her, though it might just make me feel better.

What I love is I have told, explicitly, that if she doesn't want to engage me, DON'T ENGAGE ME. Sheesh. I'm trying really hard not to use specifically rude words, but it's getting really hard :)

How else would she feel pity for the horrible life of Tony if she stopped watching the show? Plus it's doomed, you know, people are running away, the ratings are crashing! All because of Tiva. No wait, all because of Ziva. No wait, all because of the writing and the boring episodes!

(Dear people, Guilty Pleasure wasn't a horrible episode. Guilty pleasure had one horrible scene destroying the canon of Tony. Not the same thing. You can fast-forward. Oh wait, you'll have to accept Tony doesn't like not having McGee's attention, like to make him jealous, will chose him over a movie buddy and *gasp* McGee actually likes Tony! And poking each other is an important part of their relationship, that Tony likes!)

Everybody is free to see the things their own, and everybody is free to disagree, it's a discussion, and dissenting opinion are allowed. But still, you're wrong and she's right. I don't know if she honestly think like that or if she's like these people who can't admit they're wrong and will keep talking in circle or change the subject rather than deal with it in the strange hope the other persons will forget it. Or just give up, which is working.

If you do that, she'll complain that you're harassing her, have no life, and are obviously unable to form an argument to fall back on that!

She loves so much having the last words, I'd use my sockpuppet account to join until she start contradicting herself and expect attitude she won't follow and keep answering her posts with one word answer. I'm just worried my style of writing is too recognisable. I know my grammar sucks and it'll look strange to have two person with similar mistakes.

Share the McNozzo love! And keep an eye open for the 10 August :D

The evidence points that way FORYOU. Many don't see it that way; I'm hardly alone in this view. I believe she won't. I could be wrong, but so could you. Why are you so interested in proving me wrong, when you can't, or changing my mind, which you have spent time accusing me of doing????
If you can’t prove a point using the evidence of the show then attacking me isn’t going to make it any more effectively.

Wow. She doesn't get it. At least you're having fun?

No, she doesn't get it. I wonder if I showed her the definition of hypocrite if she'd understand then? Hmmmm....... :)

OH MY GOD!! I just read your reply, and HER reply, and SHE'S CONTRADICTING HERSELF. She sees it one way, you see it another, and yet she accuses me of not using the show as evidence to support what I see!!

Oh, honey, stop! You're making yourself look stupid. And I'm going to show you how real soon ;)

Good reply, by the way. Very specific.

Edited 2010-07-29 22:11 (UTC)

I'm not even going back to this thread until it has more pages, I'm not sure I can see her answer without feeling like shaking something. I guess I'm the monster trying to control her thoughts and dictate what's right or wrong? "I don't care what color you think the sky is! I think it's green, that's my opinion, it can't be right or wrong, it's just my opinion, gosh!"

Does she even acknowledge the 'No McGee scene' and the 'three seconds'?

No, she just "assumes" it one way while saying it's her prerogative basically to do so. As it's her "right" to, you know, NOT SEE WHAT'S ON THE SCREEN.

What I like, and depending on what her replies to my words are later, I may copy/paste part of her reply, considering she's accusing me of the same exact thing she's attempting to say she's doing, seeing things differently. Of course, I'm making assumptions from things UNSEEN while she's making assumptions based solely on her dislike of McGee and total love of Tony.

She's certifiable, I'm telling yah :)

It needs the 'whoah" gif or macro with Keanu Reeves from Matrix. No one is going to hate her if she admit she's not objective, I don't know why she insists. Well, she'll lost any pretension of superiority.

I looked at your tumblr, the gif doesn't look like it's working. And I'm totally stealing Jack and Ianto.

That's so weird. I can't get it to save properly to my drive. I have other gifs saved, some of yours even, but for some reason this one won't save :( It'll only save as a .jpg. Uncool. Usually I just right click and save. Argh....

Yeah, but if you actually admit to not being objective, people might stop talking to you. And I think she enjoys the attention :)

Did you try to change the .jpg on .gif? I mean, just rename it like that? Sometimes it works on the gifs I stole who only save as jpg.

I was just wondering, could it be that simple? Going to go try that. Forever learning how this stuff works :)

Nope, still not working. It's moving right when it's a thumbnail on my dashboard, but not when you embiggen. Weird. :(

Hmm, strange, it works with me. Okay, try to save it again, but before clicking okay, change jpg into gif.

Tried that like three times now. ARGH. I think I'm going to delete the post, delete all of the saves I've done, and try it once more. And then I'm giving up and screaming a little ;{

If nothing work, you can hotlink. I mean, if it's how tumblr work.

I felt calm enough to read her answer to me. I don't think she realise her bad logic. I'm free to give my point of view and 'try' to prove it, but if I continue, I'm forcing my opinion on her and don't allow her to think what she wants. But she is free to denies the other's opinion, even if they have proofs. That's totally not telling the other's opinion is wrong or forcing her opinion on them!

And her complain about judging her by her posts being bashing? Hilarious when she does the same to Agent and other Tiva/Ziva fans. The copy/paste idea is more and more tempting.

Oh, and before I add 5 stars to your posts about McGee and Ziva staying in contact after the team break_up, you had 3 stars. Meaning someone 1 star it. And the ~~scary~~ crazy thing is it could be someone not liking the proof Ziva and McGee were closer during the summer than Ziva and Tony, or someone not liking the proof McGee cares enough about his friends even without being forced by the job.

At the risk to be childish, I want to 2 stars her posts. Because everyone chose 5 or 1, it'll looks like she had more 1 than 5 stars. Can't be worse than Xanth's personal 1 star fairy.

OH MY GOD. OH. MY. GOD. What is WRONG with her? Tony clearly indicated to McGee that he should search the parking level while Tony went to the spirally thing to go down. This means Tim was NOWHERE NEAR the scene and could not possibly have seen what was going on. ALSO. When we cut to him running we do not know when he started. He could have started the second Tony yelled for Gibbs, we DO NOT KNOW. In fact, to get down the two levels in the time he did, he probably DID start running then. And even if he didn't, it's his job to follow orders. His. Job. Gibbs told him to search down from the top, Tony motioned for him to search level 9. So if that's what he's doing there's nothing WRONG WITH THAT. For all he knew Tony could have been yelling that he'd found a portal to another dimension. He didn't yell, "Boss, I am hanging off a wall and almost certain to plunge to my death!" When Tony calls for HIM, more frantically, it's only THEN he checks out what the actual problem is and is running hell for leather to save him. AND Gibbs HAS to tell him what to do. That's HIS job. He has no way of knowing what Tim is doing because he is IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING PARKING LOT AND CAN'T BE SEEN so he has to make sure he knows there's something urgent to attend to. He doesn't even tell him WHAT. He tells him, "McGee, Level 7" so he clearly knows Tim CAN'T SEE because otherwise why tell him where? ARGH ARGH ARGH.

I kill her. I kill her with knives. (Does she think Tony went home and cried into his pillow? I bet she does.)

Also. Like, Tim can't make a decision ever? Because in S7 when he basically throws himself on Paola Reynosa to save Abby and the others? Yeah, that's not decision-making.

And what the hell "your style of posts?" So she thinks it's okay to bash the characters with little/no evidence but no one is allowed to refute that because it's bashing her and her 'style'? Whatever, man. And I agree with harem_priestess, pointing out inconsistencies is not bashing. Pointing out that she is leaping to conclusions which can only be based on her personal view of the characters rather than canon is not bashing. Pointing out that she is twisting canon to serve her own theories is not bashing. I'd be inclined to say something along the lines of while there are many ways actual footage can be interpreted, you CANNOT interpret absence of footage (which, there is NOTHING TO SHOW MCGEE between when Tony falls and Gibbs yells) to mean anything BECAUSE IT ISN'T THERE. He could have been doing a fucking clog dance, for all we know. And then I would spit in her eye.

...

Okay, maybe not the last bit. Wow. I am defensive about my Tim.

This particular poster is REALLY interesting, refusing to forgive Ziva ANYTHING while shrugging and saying, Well, Gibbs had a good motive to kill Hernandez, and that it doesn't count because the US has no jurisdiction in Mexico, as if that absolves him of doing the same thing she seems to think Ziva is guilty of!

I've been going back and forth with this person for like a week at this point, and I'm having so much fun. I admit I feel a bit guilty; I'm purposely winding her up and I really shouldn't be, but it's been entirely too easy, and she just doesn't seem to see her inconsistencies. I'm actually surprised I haven't gotten bored yet.

I haven't encountered a lot of McGee hate from her yet, though I have seen it, but her Ziva hate is EPIC.

...wow.

Yeah, she was burned by tiva fans calling anti idiot, lesbian who really want Ziva (I understand being frustrated by suggesting it's impossible to really dislike a character, but not taking lesbian as an insult), blind, and some more. They also made a cap with a cat and a bad pun on her name because they think she's the one who always one star tiva/ziva positive posts. She took that as a campaign of bullying and harassment. And she thinks now everyone making an opinion about her from her posts are pure bashing in the same style. When she does the same to other posters.

She hates Ziva and consider canon she had a hand in Kate's death by giving the files to Ari and not killing him earlier, she honestly think Ziva has no right to be hurt by the way her dad treat her and should always thought about herself as mossad agent, never daughter and want her deader than dead. As for McGee, he's a arrogant ass who only consider the team as co-worker and doesn't care about them, who is only good behind a desk, got never told he was wrong so here's his big ego and have absolutely no respect for Tony. Actually, he's even angry against him for not moving up the ladder and leave the team because it's killing McGee's ambition to be the Senior Agent and leader.
And if you try to point that Tony is no angel or McGee may have reason to be grouchy or anything less than obedient and adoring with Tony, she'll quit with a "I'm tired of these view of Saint McGee and bully Tony we're not allowed to challenge!"

Because Tony is so despised in fandom, you know. I'll try to word an answer dealing with all points and then I'll give up. Until the next time she insist McGee totally danced at Tony dying and stealing his desk.

In her defense, if someone was calling her a lesbian, I'm willing to believe the intent on that persons part was an insult. They don't know her, but they have no reason to target her and insult her in such a way. I never saw this thread where she felt bullied or harrassed, before my time. But, yeah, she does seem to have a martyr complex going.

Oh, I'm sure their intention wasn't something nice, but some of the tiva/ziva fans are persuaded that if someone talk so often of someone just to show hatred, it's obviously because they're secretely attracted by them or jealous.

Less homophobic, more stupid and ignorant.

And she'll pulled this card every time someone will point how the haters can't stop themselves to turn a discussion into a Ziva bashing things. The good old "They did it too." I don't think she noticed the irony.

To be fair, the Tiva Nation like to repeat how nice and friendly they and their thread are while forgetting to precise 'as long as you think like us.' If you go to the shipper threads about Tony or Ziva with someone else, their hypocrisy is showing. And one of them actually said it was okay to insult someone because they weren't one of their own and therefore they were still the nicest around.

There are some crazy all over the board.

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